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KelTec KSG For LE Duty Use

I have the dubious honor of being someone that knows quite a bit about KSG’s and have run them through various training courses and T&E’s for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. It did not receive a recommendation for that.

I don’t know of any actual LE agencies that issues them. I would not recommend any LE agency to do so. They are not a duty grade weapon system as they are not reliable enough.

A few questions for you, feel free to PM me if you don’t want to answer these on a public forum.

1. What is their intended use?
2. What ammunition is to be used with them?
3. Who is responsible for patterning ammunition with them?
4. What modifications (optics, lasers, etc) are authorized for them?
5. How are they being stored?

Kel-Tec should have sent an FSR to conduct an armorer’s course if this was a departmental purchase.
POSITIVES:

  1. Ammunition Capacity:
The KSG has 14+1 capacity for 12 Gauge Shotgun Shells. Two tubes of 7 shells per.

2. Modularity:
The KSG has an aluminum top rail for attachment of SOPMOD accessories such as optics, lights, lasers. It has a shorter bottom rail as well.

3. Length:
Overall Length (OAL) is approximately the same as my Mossberg M in ballistic breaching configuration (pistol grip).

4. Safety: Safety is similar to M/M MK48 weapon safeties. It is easy and intuitive to use and compliments the existing manual of arms. My principle is engaging the safety during reloading and prior to movement - this compliments it.


NEGATIVES:

1) Poor Materials / Composition For A Firearm


2) Decreased Life Cycle
With the subpar materials used, life cycle of the weapon system and parts is decreased. Another problem is that unlike the M4 FOW there is not a standard for periodic parts replacement at round count intervals.

3) Limited Spare Parts Commercially Available
There are a lack of spare parts commercially available. There are a few upgrades to parts that are COTS - but no dedicated spare parts or replacement packages.

4) No Armorer Support
This and #3 are mainly what killed our looking into the KSG for adoption as a ballistic breaching platform. There are no Armorer Courses or Armorer Support for the platform anymore. The weapon system must be sent back to Kel-Tec which would leave the Ballistic Breacher without a materiel solution to accomplish his mission (or he'd revert to the M, but training time is limited for initial & sustainment training to build proficiency.)

Operation (IOM):

Ammunition Capacity is 14+1 12 Gauge Shells. Two tubes hold 7 shells each. You can select via lever which tube will utilized / able to be loaded. The issue selector is small, there are larger aftermarket selectors available. Only one tube can be loaded at a time.

Loading: Loading the KSG is difficult and time-consuming. Initially I turned the weapon system upside down to load during initial train-up and for Yeti's course. I've since transitioned to simply canting the weapon system 90 degrees pointing it downwards and going by feel. The reason I did this was because I needed a reloading system that would work in light, low light, no light, et al. If I have to load support hand I cant it 90 degrees the opposite direction.

You’re dead on about investing in dummy rounds and practicing loading drills. Shotguns are intensive with reloading drills, especially the KSG series.

Action: The action is not as smooth as the Remington or Mossberg I had a bit over 5% failure rate where I negligently short stroked the KSG pump action. More training time to include dry practice and a grip stop have reduced this.

Loading: The KSG is more amenable to loading via the Louis Awerbuck method of loading the tube first and then chambering a shell followed by feeding more shells into the tube.

Slug select drills are basically not happening. If you’re issued both slug and buck, best practice is to run your primary tube with buck and your secondary tube with slugs. Realize this also takes a lot of time to train to standard.


Malfunction Clearance: Immediate Action is easy to conduct. Remedial Action is more difficult compared to the Remington & Mossberg M This is mostly due to difficulty in extracting shells by hand. Sometimes the shell will invert in the lifter and have to be manually guided around it to be orientated correctly.

Modularity: The KSG offers decent modularity, though not as much as the M4 FOW. As issued, there is a top rail and and bottom rail.

I have a front iron sight, breaching light(s), white / IR light, IR/VIS laser, RDS on mine.

Mesa Tactical makes an aftermarket rail for them. Their regular rail is better (and has two attachment points on the side for Picatinny sections), the Sidesaddle Rail sticks out too far and negatively affects weapon weight and balance. I have breaching lights set up on the smaller Picatinny sections.

I recommend against QD mounts on the KSG due to the increased recoil impulse which will toss accessories off it like a bull. Loctite is your ally.

The bottom Picatinny rail is plastic, not aluminum. As such, it is not as effective as an aluminum rail and will have increased rate of equipment loss due to this and recoil impulse. I recommend a COTS aluminum bottom rail to replace it.

I have a kydex cheek piece that fits over the stock which has Velcro on it for an Esstac shotgun card. The card can be pulled off when empty and replaced with another.


Maintenance (IOM):
As stated, Level Maintenance is practically nonexistent unless you need to replace issue parts with parts that available aftermarket.

Limited spare parts commercially available (see: https://www.keltecweapons.com/collections/parts/ksg-series/), no Armorer Courses, no Armorer Support. Weapon systems must be sent back to Kel-Tec for repair.


Hope this helps. Sorry if this is disjointed, I’m copying / pasting stuff from previous talks about this gun.
________________________________________

I can film some techniques (loading, weapon manipulation) if it will help ya’ll out.

If your department is looking to have someone come down and conduct a training course for them, I’ll do so for free (I’d ask to have ya’ll cover flight / lodging / transpo but tuition is free). I hate seeing good guys saddled with bad equipment, but I know what it’s like to make do with what ya got.

 

Sours: https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/keltec-ksg-for-le-duty-use/
I bought a KSG earlier this year.

I did a full "fluff & buff" for the action and chamber and bore polish.
This eliminated any failures to extract, and it operates so easily now, there's almost no chance of a short stroke in opening or closing the action.

For details on what to fluff & buff read the posts on the Kel-Tec forum.

https://www.thektog.org/threads/gettmy-ksg/

You'll be truly amazed at how much smoother and easier the KSG is after some light polish work to round off sharp edges.
It also goes a long way to eliminating short stroking because the gun operates so smoothly.
The KSG is a modified Ithaca Model 37 type action and it feeds and resets the action in the last 1/4 inch of slide travel to the rear and the last 1/4 inch of slide travel to the front.
Fluffing & buffing smooths stiffness of those areas and increases reliability.

Watch videos of people demonstraiting the KSG and having problems and they're either early guns that had problems, and/or they're trying to show off how they can fire the gun at just stupid speeds and causing short stroking or trigger issues.

Since the bore and chamber is parkerized polishing it out smooths the rough surface and stops the failures to extract caused by the roughness.
A shotgun cleaning rod and a bore brush wrapped with steel wool and chucked in a drill does a fast job of it.

For a set up, I figure "less is more" in a real home defense gun, not a range toy.
I didn't want to spend the money on a red dot sight which needs to be turned on and has a battery that may fail when most needed.
I also didn't want the usual pop-up AR front and rear rifle sights.
These have to be popped up to use and they stick up enough I'd worry about bumping them and breaking them off.
These are also far more precise then needed at typical shotgun ranges.

In fact, for a true home defense gun used at very close range, I didn't want an intrusive sight that has to be aimed through. I wanted something along the lines of simple open rifle sights that can be looked over for a "flash" sight picture.
The shotgun is an instinctively aimed gun that's "pointed" at the target and is ultra fast in use.
Precision sights are unneeded and can slow you down.

For that reason, I installed an Archangel Auxiliary sight.
This is made of a very hard polymer.
It has an orange standard AR adjustable front sight, and a polymer dovetail pistol rear sight that can be adjusted for windage.
I added a rear sight guard to protect the exposed rear sight. This is made of two thicknesses of Kydex.
The outer "ears" are thicker, the inner parts are strips of thinner Kydex to act as spacers to allow moving the rear sight if needed.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-partprodaspx

I added a MagPul vertical pistol grip to both serve to prevent the hand from slipping forward, and to offer a better grip for reliable operation.
There's been a lot of talk about the early KSG lower rail breaking and someone shooting his hand off.
Kel-Tec has beefed up the handguard in the rail area and when used with a good grip like the MagPul there's little chance of normal use breaking the grip off.
Where you get problems is with a cheap hand grip that doesn't spread the contact over the rail and won't clamp properly. The MagPul is a known good to go setup.

Much of the breakage was caused by abusive treatment of the gun.
Because the rough chamber caused extraction problems and people tried to operate the gun at silly speeds and caused short stroking and feed problems, they get advised to "Just HAMMER the action, you can't hurt it".
That kind of abuse is unnecessary and led to broken off forward grips on early guns.

To reduce felt recoil I bought the Kel-Tec optional thicker butt pad to replace the factory stock pad.
While it's ugly, Limbsaver makes a slip-on pad that also reduces the pounding.

Other then that it's box-stock.
I don't see any real justification for metal magazine followers, the stock white plastic are perfectly good.
I didn't like the look of the aftermarket extended magazine selector because it sticks out enough that I'd worry about breaking it off if the gun was bumped the wrong way.

The gun holds 14 standard shotgun shells so external shell holders just add weight and slow the gun down.
If I wanted to shoot game birds I might justify adding a muzzle adaptor to allow using chokes, but I don't hunt so that would be money wasted.
Like all smooth barrel Cylinder Bore shotguns it should shoot slugs with enough accuracy at any practical range without added chokes.
Most of the other accessories are of questionable use or practicality.
These aftermarket accessories run from the pretty much useless to the really silly stuff, like spikes for the front so you can stab someone.

What I wanted was a simple, reliable shotgun I could hold with one hand as I moved around a home and opened doors if needed, and still fire at least the first round with one hand.
The KSG fills that need.
With a little simple work it's proved to be totally reliable and pretty much fool proof.
In fact, the KSG is so well developed and reliable it's now in use by the South Korean "White Tiger" special ops unit, the French R.A.I.D. anti-terrorist force, some prison guard units, and a number of American military special ops units.



Sours: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=
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"Do you have a step by step process off the "fluff and buff?"

There was a "how to" on the Kel-Tec forum's KSG FAQ, but for some reason it's been inactivated.

https://www.thektog.org/forums/

Here's how I did it. but first the FIRST accessory to buy is the Kel-Tec factory thicker recoil pad.  This goes a long way to reducing the recoil, and it looks a lot better then the Limbsaver slip-on pad.  It's a drop in part.

KSG fluff and buffthis should also work for the new KS7 BUT I haven't been inside a KS7 yet so there will be some differences
Note that when we say "polish" we actually mean to SMOOTH, NOT "like a mirror".  Polishing to a bright shine does nothing and often ruins parts.

I'll refer to the KSG owner's manual schematic on their site

https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/shotguns/ksg/

DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE TRIGGER GROUP.
First there's nothing inside that will benefit from any work.  The KSG already has the best bullpup firearm trigger ever.
Note that there's video on the internet on how to DISassemble the trigger group, but tellingly nothing on how to REassemble it.
The reason is the group is assembled at Kel-Tec using fixtures and holding jigs.  Without those, you have to use some force to get it together and that runs a good risk of breaking the plastic flanges that hold the trigger and sear pins in place.
This was one of the most difficult trigger groups to reassemble I ever encountered.  Be smart, leave it alone.

Disassemble the butt stock assembly and remove the shell lifter part
Smooth and break the edges on the circular areas at the rear where the operating slide contacts it to operate the lifter, and the top and bottom of the forward "fingers".  Don't touch the two small cuts on the bottom, those are actually the ejectors.
Reduce the rough machine ridges but don't try to totally remove them.
Apply grease to the circular cuts at the rear.
Make sure the butt pad doesn't interfere with the shell lifter and that it pivots easily.  Apply grease to the two holes in the carrier that fit over the two pins in the plastic butt stock.

Remove the bolt lock from the bolt and smooth the circular locking area on the bottom.  Lightly break the sharp edges on the top around the locking lug.   Look for wear in the finish and smooth those areas.
Grease the bolt, bolt lock surfaces, and the locking lug on top.  
Unless there's a problem leave the extractor in place.

Round off and polish the rear edge of the bolt carrier flat, part  This contacts and operates the shell lifter in the butt.
Round off and polish the front edge of the carrier flat part right in front of the two slots.  This operates the cartridge stop activator.
Grease the front and rear edges.  Apply grease to the bottom of the carrier flat where the two holes are and where the bolt rides.

Grease the locking lug slot in the top-rear of the barrel.

Don't dissemble the cartridge catches part , inner catch part , and spring unless you have to.  These can be difficult to reassemble.
Polish the top-front pointed areas of the cartridge catches part  This is a critical area for smoother, easier operation.  With the gun field stripped these are easily seen and can be smoothed in place.
Apply grease to the top-front flats.

Remove the cartridge stop activator part by pushing the cross pin part PART of the way out just far enough to allow removal of
Polish the inside edges of the kidney shaped hole in the rear and the flat area on the lower rear.
Grease the inside of the kidney shaped hole, the rear flat area, and the rear edge of the lug on the front end.
The KSG stages the next shell in the ready to feed position in the last 1/2 inch of forward movement of the forearm.  Polishing and greasing the indicated areas smooths the feed cycle and helps prevent short stroking on the forward stroke,.

Round off and polish the rear edge of the mag stop activator plate, part  This plate slides over the two shell catches and releases a shell into the action.  Grease the rear edge.  This is a major cause of short stroking on the rear movement of the forearm.
Smoothing the top-fronts of the cartridge catches and the activator plate goes a long way to smoothing the action and reducing short stroking.

Pull the plastic forearm to the rear while it's on the gun and notice that the rear edge contacts and pushes down slightly on the slide release lever on the front of the trigger guard.
Why Kel-Tec allowed this is unknown but it serves no purpose except to add addition difficulty in operating the gun and can cause short stoking.
I suspect that when Kel-Tec redesigned the early slide release they did not also change the forearm mold to prevent contact with the release.
The KSG feeds a shell into the action when the forearm is in the last 1/2 inch of rearward movement.  Any contact with the slide release only adds resistance and makes it harder to operate the gun smoothly.
File or grind a circular cut on the rear edge of the plastic forearm so the forearm will not contact the slide release.

Polish the parkerizing out of the chamber and if desired the barrel.  The parkerizing is rough and a major cause of extraction problems, especially with cheap steel head shells.

Disassemble the forearm and while the butt stock is apart to access the shell lifter use a fingernail board or fine wet or dry sand cloth to smooth all sharp edges on the plastic parts, especially around the shell feed area.

I recommend spraying a dry lube into the magazine tubes to lubricate and prevent the springs from rusting.
I've had good luck with WD Dry Lube with Teflon.

Eventually you'll need to disassemble the magazine tubes to clean.  I recommend buying the better tool to do this

https://www.mcarbo.com/kel-tec-ksg-follower-nut-tool.aspx

Also available on Amazon.
Some people have used a 1/2 inch Allen head bolt and two nuts to remove the inner magazine caps but this does NOT always work and you can damage the caps or magazine tubes.
Kel-Tec uses Loctite on the caps so you need to apply MILD heat to get them off.

Accessories
Shell deflectors.  
Some people get hit on the forearm by ejected cases and can get dinged up.  A shell deflector does stop this, but also makes loading the gun much harder.
A better solution is to just hold your elbow out to the side so the shells don't hit you.  I learned to shoot a rifle with the arm out to the side so this is natural for me.

Extended magazine switches.  
These are too long and too prone to getting broken off.  The switch bolt is TINY and in an inaccessible place so replacement would require a trip back to Kel-Tec.
I found that if I reach under with my left forefinger I can hook the stock switch and pull it over to feed from the left magazine easily.

Muzzle attachments.
There are all sorts of muzzle brakes, choke tube adapters, and various spikes and other quite useless accessories.
Spikes????  You're going to stab someone with your shotgun?????
The choke tube adapter might be useful but be aware that you need a special muzzle nut wrench and the Kel-Tec muzzle nut has changed several times so you need to get the right one.
WARNING: The muzzle nut is on TIGHT, TIGHT, TIGHT, and will not come off easily.
Some of the broken off vertical front grips that you see were probably broken by trying to use the grip as a handle while trying to unscrew the tight muzzle nut.
You'll need some way of holding the barrel firmly but without damaging it while you use force to break the muzzle nut loose.

Front grips.
There are any number of designs, but probably the best is the Mag-Pul VFG.  It clamps on over a wider area and is a quality part.
If you're nervous about a front grip breaking off and putting your hand in front of the muzzle, there's also an accessory aluminum Pickatinny rail that bolts to the plastic lower rail.
However, Kel-Tec beefed up the forearm to prevent this.

Sights.
Most people use AR folding sights or an electronic sight.
I didn't like how exposed and easily the AR sights were to break or damage if bumped or caught on something and I didn't like having to take time to pop both up.
I also didn't like having to turn on a red dot sight so I bought a Archangel auxiliary sight.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/front-sights/arfixed-archangel-auxiliary-sight-prodaspx

The front is an orange AR sight that's adjustable for elevation and the rear sight is a pistol type sight adjustable for windage.
I used Kydex to build protective ears for the rear, and added shims of Kydex under the ears to give enough clearance so the rear can be adjusted.





The KS7 appears to be no more then a slightly modified, simpler KSG design.  The same fluff and buff should also work for it.

The KSG "may" work well with the 1 3/4 inch mini shells made by Aquila and now Federal but don't trust it until you've shot enough to verify reliability.
An alternative are the Italian Noblesport 2 1/4 inch 00 buckshot shells which seem to always work.
Sours: https://www.arcom/forums/Armory/Kel-Tec-KSG-and-KS7-Are-They-Junk-Let-s-talk-//
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